Posted Oct 30, 2008 at 10:05PM by Rem L.
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David Braben,
HMV
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 I never thought selling old games can be a hazard to the gaming industry. Well for Frontier founder and creator of Elite, David Braben, HMV's act of selling pre-owned games is detrimental to the gaming industry. The decision of HMV to do this is 'shocking' for him and he also thinks the company take action as soon as possible before further damages happen. He explains, "The shops are not giving us a way of distinguishing between pre-owned and new. So the shops are essentially defrauding the industry. " His firsthand experience of receiving an old copy for the same price of a new unit must have left a sour taste in his mouth, as we're sure a lot of you guys out there can empathize with. He thinks this is very disgraceful because it really destroys the shelf-life of their games. We've got a lot of retailers eating our lunch and refusing to sell full-priced games. I've been in a shop where I've tried to buy a copy of a relatively recent game, and I've taken an empty box off the shelf and they've given me a pre-owned copy. That, I think, is disgraceful...Not holding stock of new games, substituting them with pre-owned games at the same or much the same price... That is really destroying the shelf-life of our games. So what's the solution to this problem? The game industry should look into having a similar model as that used for DVDs and video sales, which are rental copies. They brought out rental copies, and copies not for resale or rental. That distinction is really important in the video market, and all of the chains honour it because they know it's more than life's worth not to. Well, we've all got our take on this matter. But what about you guys? Do share your thoughts at our comments section below. Related articles: |
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24 Comments
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by lavino - 2008-10-30 |
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» so same logic.. we should shut down all used cars places
they are hurting GM and Ford! Look at their stock prices!!!
they are hurting GM and Ford! Look at their stock prices!!!
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Re: sickofitall - 2008-10-31 |
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» yes, but
GM and Ford also make money off of replacement parts and services as well. Game developers, once the game is made, do not have any other ways to make money (besides DLC of course).
So, I see his point, but for a consumer it benefits to have choices like Gamestop.
GM and Ford also make money off of replacement parts and services as well. Game developers, once the game is made, do not have any other ways to make money (besides DLC of course).
So, I see his point, but for a consumer it benefits to have choices like Gamestop.
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Re: damonous - 2008-10-31 |
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» Use games promote other games
First-off, I think QJ has done a little bit of disservice to the main comment that the developer made (that stores should not be re-packaging Used as if it were New). I would agree that Used (on a $60 game) should always start around $10 cheaper. However, the more severe notion that Used games automatically equate to profit-loss for a Studio is 100% BS. 1) Not everyone will be able to constantly afford buying brand-new $60 games. 2) But for those that can, it makes the investment of $60 seem more logical if there is believed to be a reasonable Resale value in the product. 3) For those who do buy Used (just as with music or movies), it might expose someone to that Studio's product (who might otherwise not have done so) and encourage them to buy that Studio's NEXT release as New. 4) Lastly, something big is being omitted here: printing software is the next most lucrative thing to printing money. Once you invest in the original development of the software, making replicas is essentially gravy. It's not like these Studios are in the business of making homes. That would take real raw materials and continued man-hours and effort to produce more homes. Software? --Just fire up the presses for another printing. Yes, there is some cost. But nowhere near what it costs for "real" products. --That's why they call it "IP" (Intellectual Property); because it's NOT physical property.
First-off, I think QJ has done a little bit of disservice to the main comment that the developer made (that stores should not be re-packaging Used as if it were New). I would agree that Used (on a $60 game) should always start around $10 cheaper. However, the more severe notion that Used games automatically equate to profit-loss for a Studio is 100% BS. 1) Not everyone will be able to constantly afford buying brand-new $60 games. 2) But for those that can, it makes the investment of $60 seem more logical if there is believed to be a reasonable Resale value in the product. 3) For those who do buy Used (just as with music or movies), it might expose someone to that Studio's product (who might otherwise not have done so) and encourage them to buy that Studio's NEXT release as New. 4) Lastly, something big is being omitted here: printing software is the next most lucrative thing to printing money. Once you invest in the original development of the software, making replicas is essentially gravy. It's not like these Studios are in the business of making homes. That would take real raw materials and continued man-hours and effort to produce more homes. Software? --Just fire up the presses for another printing. Yes, there is some cost. But nowhere near what it costs for "real" products. --That's why they call it "IP" (Intellectual Property); because it's NOT physical property.
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by Ivory_soul - 2008-10-30 |
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» Douche
Ok this guy is a real douche bag. First off EB Games are a bunch of *****s to begin with for opening new games and putting them out on the shelves as new. To me that IS pre-owned and I always get pissed off with them and they always discount me $5. They do this because they say "the games get stolen" so just put a DISPLAY BOX out, have it taken to the counter, and get your new factory shrink wrapped game and have an employee put it back...it's that simple. They are the only ones that do this (and GameStop but they are the same company now) it's ridiculous.
I say this guy is a douche because not everyone can afford new games. Who can throw down $60 a week on a new game they want? They go hunt on eBay a couple of months later and pick it up for $20-30 less...or buy it from a game store used. I always try to buy the game new if it's at a price that's a fair deal. I'm not gonna drop $60 on Dead or Alive Xtreme 3. Instead I'll wait about 6 months and get it new off the internet for like $15 (I did that with Xtreme 2) because I feel $15 is a fair price for boobs and a few mini-games.
Ok this guy is a real douche bag. First off EB Games are a bunch of *****s to begin with for opening new games and putting them out on the shelves as new. To me that IS pre-owned and I always get pissed off with them and they always discount me $5. They do this because they say "the games get stolen" so just put a DISPLAY BOX out, have it taken to the counter, and get your new factory shrink wrapped game and have an employee put it back...it's that simple. They are the only ones that do this (and GameStop but they are the same company now) it's ridiculous.
I say this guy is a douche because not everyone can afford new games. Who can throw down $60 a week on a new game they want? They go hunt on eBay a couple of months later and pick it up for $20-30 less...or buy it from a game store used. I always try to buy the game new if it's at a price that's a fair deal. I'm not gonna drop $60 on Dead or Alive Xtreme 3. Instead I'll wait about 6 months and get it new off the internet for like $15 (I did that with Xtreme 2) because I feel $15 is a fair price for boobs and a few mini-games.
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Re: JOshISPoser - 2008-10-30 |
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» forgot to mention
with pre-used games, who makes the money? the store, not the industry. So, if there is only demand of two actual new copies, but they are selling the used copies like mad, only gamestop/eb games is making money. buying used games is bad for the gaming industry as the gaming companies don't get the money from it.
DON'T BUY USED GAMES....over and out
with pre-used games, who makes the money? the store, not the industry. So, if there is only demand of two actual new copies, but they are selling the used copies like mad, only gamestop/eb games is making money. buying used games is bad for the gaming industry as the gaming companies don't get the money from it.
DON'T BUY USED GAMES....over and out
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Re: lavino - 2008-10-30 |
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» I also forgot to mention
If game company makes better games ppl can play them longer... In order to have 10000 used copies of such and such game there need to be approx 10000 fresh copies sold (I said approx...).
No retailer willing to move fresh release game stock directly into used copies directly. These used game came from someone somewhere. Why? Most likely 1) they finished the game really fast and deem that it has zero replay value or 2) the game really sux that they are willing to get rid of them asap (or 3) someone ,or some staff, stole them and sell them back but that is a security issue). If the game is really that great and awesome not that many people is willing to buy it and play it for 2 days and sell it back (unless you are that crazy). Also, so many people buying used reflects a very important aspect: your damn game cost too much in new price! True enough everyone want to buy stuffs as cheap as possible. The fact that people willing to flock to buy used copies that is $10 cheaper (even just $10... evil Game Stop) shows that the $10 diff really make a difference! If there is a new game selling for $39.99 I, IMO, tend not to care to see if there is a used copy.
If game company makes better games ppl can play them longer... In order to have 10000 used copies of such and such game there need to be approx 10000 fresh copies sold (I said approx...).
No retailer willing to move fresh release game stock directly into used copies directly. These used game came from someone somewhere. Why? Most likely 1) they finished the game really fast and deem that it has zero replay value or 2) the game really sux that they are willing to get rid of them asap (or 3) someone ,or some staff, stole them and sell them back but that is a security issue). If the game is really that great and awesome not that many people is willing to buy it and play it for 2 days and sell it back (unless you are that crazy). Also, so many people buying used reflects a very important aspect: your damn game cost too much in new price! True enough everyone want to buy stuffs as cheap as possible. The fact that people willing to flock to buy used copies that is $10 cheaper (even just $10... evil Game Stop) shows that the $10 diff really make a difference! If there is a new game selling for $39.99 I, IMO, tend not to care to see if there is a used copy.
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Re: nall256 - 2008-10-31 |
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» @ lavino
At the EB that I used to work at (way back in '01, things are probably worse now) I kept track of this kind of thing. Our store got 13 copies of ghost recon initially. I sold 78 copies of ghost recon over the next year, and our store recieved 0 new shipments of said game. I know that some of those 78 were bought new at the Best Buy in the same shopping center, but at least half of them were from people who 'traded in' the game.
At the EB that I used to work at (way back in '01, things are probably worse now) I kept track of this kind of thing. Our store got 13 copies of ghost recon initially. I sold 78 copies of ghost recon over the next year, and our store recieved 0 new shipments of said game. I know that some of those 78 were bought new at the Best Buy in the same shopping center, but at least half of them were from people who 'traded in' the game.
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by Korlithiel - 2008-10-30 |
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» The point makes sense
His point seemed to be that there are stores that are promoting their used copies as new, ripping off customers and the rest of the industry while making an additional few bucks.
And to that extent I agree, it is very misleading and is a bad business practice. But beyond that, saying used games hurts the industry, is too extreme of a view for me to even consider. And as I am tired I will leave it at that rather then spend more time on a rant.
His point seemed to be that there are stores that are promoting their used copies as new, ripping off customers and the rest of the industry while making an additional few bucks.
And to that extent I agree, it is very misleading and is a bad business practice. But beyond that, saying used games hurts the industry, is too extreme of a view for me to even consider. And as I am tired I will leave it at that rather then spend more time on a rant.
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Re: Starayo - 2008-10-31 |
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» .
Yeah - selling used games as new is a disgusting practice, and while used game sales as a whole do hurt the industry a bit, I'll stop buying used games when a new game doesn't cost me a hundred Australian dollars or more a pop. I can see fifty movies (ok.. with my friend's employee discount :P) for that price.
Yeah - selling used games as new is a disgusting practice, and while used game sales as a whole do hurt the industry a bit, I'll stop buying used games when a new game doesn't cost me a hundred Australian dollars or more a pop. I can see fifty movies (ok.. with my friend's employee discount :P) for that price.
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by Acteon - 2008-10-31 |
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» Surely...
Selling a used game at the same price of a new game without making a distinction is a clear case of fraud?
On a wider level, used games are the only way for some people to be gamers at all. Hell, some of my friends can't even afford the current consoles.
You can't prohibit people from selling on something they've bought, that's ludicrous. As a businessman I appreciate the dilemma for software houses, but there's no way to ban it. Clever marketing ideas like free content for the original owner is a good compromise though. It marks a difference between used and new, and allows consumers to make an informed choice.
Selling a used game at the same price of a new game without making a distinction is a clear case of fraud?
On a wider level, used games are the only way for some people to be gamers at all. Hell, some of my friends can't even afford the current consoles.
You can't prohibit people from selling on something they've bought, that's ludicrous. As a businessman I appreciate the dilemma for software houses, but there's no way to ban it. Clever marketing ideas like free content for the original owner is a good compromise though. It marks a difference between used and new, and allows consumers to make an informed choice.
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Re: Sembazuru - 2008-11-03 |
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» Contracts might mitigate used copies...
I'm not a lawyer, but I wonder if the distributors could force the stores to only sell new games for a certain period of time before selling the used copies. Sounds like something that could be written into a distribution contract.
I do know that EB/GameStop makes a mint off their pre-played discs (I used to work in EB's refurbishing facility when it was in West Chester, PA). The stores buy the games back at low cost. Only if the discs are badly scratched do they send the discs back to the refurbishment center, and those take pennies to refurbish per disc. Based on that I can see EB/GameStop not agreeing with a cessation of used sales, but they might be able to be convinced to delay used game sales.
I'm not a lawyer, but I wonder if the distributors could force the stores to only sell new games for a certain period of time before selling the used copies. Sounds like something that could be written into a distribution contract.
I do know that EB/GameStop makes a mint off their pre-played discs (I used to work in EB's refurbishing facility when it was in West Chester, PA). The stores buy the games back at low cost. Only if the discs are badly scratched do they send the discs back to the refurbishment center, and those take pennies to refurbish per disc. Based on that I can see EB/GameStop not agreeing with a cessation of used sales, but they might be able to be convinced to delay used game sales.
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by Ivory_soul - 2008-10-31 |
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» Point...
My main point is the fact that EB Games/GameStop sell new games with them ALREADY OPENED!! Used games aren't hurting the gaming industry because they were bought new at one point you know!!!! This is just completely absurd that used games should never exist. The game stores need to make money to stay open. This guy is just a douche bag who has money and doesn't see the point of SAVING MONEY!!!
My main point is the fact that EB Games/GameStop sell new games with them ALREADY OPENED!! Used games aren't hurting the gaming industry because they were bought new at one point you know!!!! This is just completely absurd that used games should never exist. The game stores need to make money to stay open. This guy is just a douche bag who has money and doesn't see the point of SAVING MONEY!!!
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Re: FreePlay - 2008-10-31 |
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» ...
"Used games aren't hurting the gaming industry because they were bought new at one point you know!!!!"
Except that a used game sale takes the place of a new game sale, and 100% of the profit goes to the game store and 0% to the game company.
"Used games aren't hurting the gaming industry because they were bought new at one point you know!!!!"
Except that a used game sale takes the place of a new game sale, and 100% of the profit goes to the game store and 0% to the game company.
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Re: Starayo - 2008-10-31 |
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» "100% of the profit goes to the game store and 0% to the game company."
But, by the time the game is in the store, the game company has already been paid, because the store has bought it from the distributor.
But, by the time the game is in the store, the game company has already been paid, because the store has bought it from the distributor.
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Re: FreePlay - 2008-11-02 |
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» ...
Do you really not understand this?
When you buy a new game, every sale goes part to the store, part to the game company.
When you buy a used game, NOTHING goes to the game company, and you can buy the SAME UNIT over and over again.
Do you really not understand this?
When you buy a new game, every sale goes part to the store, part to the game company.
When you buy a used game, NOTHING goes to the game company, and you can buy the SAME UNIT over and over again.
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by ForgottenSoup - 2008-10-31 |
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» Hm
I'm not particularily saddened by the fact that multi-million dollar companies do not get my sixty dollars. Call me cold-hearted. Or just middle-class.
Besides-- don't stores buy them from the game developers and publishers anyway? In order to truly support the industry you'd have to walk into the EA(example) warehouse and hand them your money and walk out with the game.
I'm not particularily saddened by the fact that multi-million dollar companies do not get my sixty dollars. Call me cold-hearted. Or just middle-class.
Besides-- don't stores buy them from the game developers and publishers anyway? In order to truly support the industry you'd have to walk into the EA(example) warehouse and hand them your money and walk out with the game.
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Re: StingBlah - 2008-10-31 |
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» how about i call you...
stupid?
You are one among billions. I'm SURE there are many others who think like that. When you put everything together its a company losing millions, and abandoning projects for consoles. Every sale helps. More importantly its not the 60 bucks, its the mentality that is important.
Also--Store buy from other stores who buy from other stores who buy from EA. So indirectly, stores do buy from EA.
stupid?
You are one among billions. I'm SURE there are many others who think like that. When you put everything together its a company losing millions, and abandoning projects for consoles. Every sale helps. More importantly its not the 60 bucks, its the mentality that is important.
Also--Store buy from other stores who buy from other stores who buy from EA. So indirectly, stores do buy from EA.
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by Mister Common Sense - 2008-10-31 |
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» .
There needs to be a used game industry. Hell, if you trade in 5 used games at gamestop, you can get a brand new game!
There needs to be a used game industry. Hell, if you trade in 5 used games at gamestop, you can get a brand new game!
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by Datnizzle - 2008-10-31 |
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» Oh well...
They just want a deal like the movie studios, were they get a cut from every used movie that is sold. That's cool. used games are usually only about $5 cheaper anyway.
They just want a deal like the movie studios, were they get a cut from every used movie that is sold. That's cool. used games are usually only about $5 cheaper anyway.
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by ISOHaven - 2008-10-31 |
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» WTF!?!?!?!?!
The title of this artcile is wrong. Do devs make LESS money because of re-sells? Yes. Do they make LESS money because of RENTALS? Yes.
Are they HURT by it? Hell NO!!!!
Games have been available for rent for as long as I can remember. I'd say more people rent then buy used games. So this artcile is attacking the wrong industry. GameFly is making much more then Gamestop on game rentals.
With that said, the gaming industry has been doing just fine for the past 18+ years.
The title of this artcile is wrong. Do devs make LESS money because of re-sells? Yes. Do they make LESS money because of RENTALS? Yes.
Are they HURT by it? Hell NO!!!!
Games have been available for rent for as long as I can remember. I'd say more people rent then buy used games. So this artcile is attacking the wrong industry. GameFly is making much more then Gamestop on game rentals.
With that said, the gaming industry has been doing just fine for the past 18+ years.
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Re: lavino - 2008-10-31 |
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» exactly!
that and evil BlockBuster too +P
that and evil BlockBuster too +P
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Re: FreePlay - 2008-11-02 |
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» ...
"Are they HURT by it? Hell NO!!!!"
How on earth can you say that they do make less money, but they're not hurt by it? Making less money is HOW THEY'RE HURT BY IT.
"Are they HURT by it? Hell NO!!!!"
How on earth can you say that they do make less money, but they're not hurt by it? Making less money is HOW THEY'RE HURT BY IT.
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Re: ISOHaven - 2008-11-02 |
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» WTF!?!?!?!?!
Seriously? How long did you think about that before you replied?
If I sneak up behind you, put a gun to your head and demand you give me $1.... will that financially HURT YOU? Like I said, HELL NO!!!!
Seriously? How long did you think about that before you replied?
If I sneak up behind you, put a gun to your head and demand you give me $1.... will that financially HURT YOU? Like I said, HELL NO!!!!
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by shabghai360 - 2008-10-31 |
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» hmmm
dev's make games and games are sold so dev's earn money. Thats normal.
I buy a game for 60 bucks and find its' not to my liking, or I play once or twice and decide I want something new. I therefore sell my game second hand.
I am always in favour of the lowest price for the consumer (me) but I also want value for my money. As games are expensive then I try to be selective and have no worries about second hand. However for myself I have never bought a game second hand in a store! I normally buy from another gamer and have on occasion swapped what I have purchased with someone else. This I also see as normal. I bought a racing game and just got fed up with it. Another gamer has a shooter but likes racing. Fair swap, no one suffers, 2 buyers 2 games and 2 happy clients. What dev's must remember even though I support some of their arguments is that not all gamers buy every game.
dev's make games and games are sold so dev's earn money. Thats normal.
I buy a game for 60 bucks and find its' not to my liking, or I play once or twice and decide I want something new. I therefore sell my game second hand.
I am always in favour of the lowest price for the consumer (me) but I also want value for my money. As games are expensive then I try to be selective and have no worries about second hand. However for myself I have never bought a game second hand in a store! I normally buy from another gamer and have on occasion swapped what I have purchased with someone else. This I also see as normal. I bought a racing game and just got fed up with it. Another gamer has a shooter but likes racing. Fair swap, no one suffers, 2 buyers 2 games and 2 happy clients. What dev's must remember even though I support some of their arguments is that not all gamers buy every game.
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